Hip-Hop and Showing Up: Intentionality in Relationships, Running, and Rhymes | Dr. Terence Gadsden
If you're going to do something, do it fully and with a clear purpose.
In this episode of Define Play, Terence shares his deep connection to hip-hop, influenced by his DJ brother, and explains his approach to DJing, sampling, and music mixing. As an athletic chaplain turned Campus Pastor at North Park University, his experiences as a collegiate runner and a former pastor at Lawndale Community Church come together powerfully in his new ministry context. Terence also discusses his passion for running, and how coaching connects to his parenting style and pursuits of play with his family.
Songs that inspire Terence to play:
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Dr. Terence Gadsden is the Campus Pastor & Athletic Chaplain at North Park University in Chicago, as well as a hip-hop DJ (DJ Rock On) and avid runner.
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In the second half of the conversation, Michael asks Terence about play in the "Black community." We want to acknowledge that the somewhat sloppy wording of Michael's question could imply an assumption of a monolithic and universal expression of Black play, when there are an endless myriad of ways play takes shape in diverse Black, African-American, and African cultures and sub-cultures across the world.
Musicians mentioned in the conversation: James Brown, Curtis Mayfield, Lauryn Hill, Chance the Rapper, Redman, Whitney Houston, Prince, Michael Jackson, Nas, Jay-Z, Wu-Tang Clan, Marvin Gaye, Kendrick Lamar
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MM
Before we dive into some of the other topics that you have a ton of expertise on, we have to talk about motorcycling.
TG
Yeah, come on. Let's talk about it.
MM
We have shared motorcycling together as something that is fun to get out and we'll have to put the photo on the screen of that from our last ride. And I know you love to just get out and like you go out in the mornings, you just take a solo ride.
What is motorcycling for you? What's the appeal there?
TG
Well, it's just the freedom. My old late brother had a motorcycle. He had a Suzuki 500 and I just grew out on the back of it. And as a kid, my parents hated it, but I loved it. And so I just loved motorcycles since I was in fifth grade.
And I told myself one day, I'm going to get me one. And after I graduated with my doctorate, I got me an iceberg, mad dog, 150cc. So it's like a motorcycle, but it's like a scooter, but it's like a motorcycle. I mean, it rips though. Yeah. And I got it and I loved it. So just riding and just being out in the open. I call it black boy joy.
MM
Black Boy Joy. We've got to get out and do another ride this summer and get some Black Boy Joy going.
Yeah. I love it. So a lot of things that I'm excited to talk to you about. I think you are one of the most well-versed people I know in hip hop, in the spiritual, emotional, cultural layers of hip hop. If I were asked to rank top most playful genres of music, I think hip hop would easily make top three. It would probably contend with jazz, or which one shows up better with improvisation and such. But talk to me about what hip hop means to you. And are there places where you see playfulness show up in hip hop in particular?
TG
Yeah, hip-hop is my native tongue. Again, my late brother, Otis Goode, was a DJ, hip-hop DJ. And so when he was in high school, he would DJ all over New Jersey, and he would sneak me with him, and I would go to house parties, and I would go and kind of hold the crates of records. But I just loved how hip-hop brought people together.
He always infused, not only hip-hop, but also house music, jazz, funk. And later I realized that that was actually hip-hop. Hip-hop is just all these genres, all these styles kind of compiled together. And so when I was in college, I started DJing as well. And so just playing with music and different beats and instruments. And so, but I just fell in love with how hip-hop is so inclusive of just the diversity of the world and how it's just, you know, you don't have to be, anything can be hip-hop in some regards. Define hip-hop. Yeah. But it's turntables, it's the graffiti, it's the emceeing, it's the B-boys, B-girls, it's the dance. And so all those things make elements of hip-hop. But hip-hop is also a culture, a subculture, and started from the Bronx in the late 70s and really out of a struggle. But just bringing people together, taking something out of nothing and making it great. So that's why I love about hip-hop.
Hip-hop is just inclusive of culture and styles and it speaks of a story. So that's why I love hip-hop.
MM
the word story is great there in the way storytelling can show up in hip hop can be, it can be very humorous, it can be with many layers deep in the word play and the word choices as well as it can also be deeply personal and emotional and there's a storytelling element of hip hop that is so powerful.
And talk about bringing samples in, I mean your brother's DJ, so you had those records, you're sampling things from across different genres and then house music has its roots in that as well here in Chicago as well. When you're approaching sampling or when you see samples used in hip hop, how is that handled? How do you go about that, like taking anything as fair game to incorporate?
TG
Well, yeah, I think there's many types of DJs, and so there's some DJs who are kind of like radio DJs, there's hip hop DJs, there's house DJs. But for hip hop DJs, and particularly my brother, what he would do is he would just be in a record store for hours. That part I hated.
We would go to a record store and we're going to be here for like five minutes, maybe like two hours and a half. He would take a lot of funk records. He loved funk records, like James Brown, and a lot of James Brown funk, Curtis Mayfield. Just like a lot of funk albums, particularly James Brown, and he would just try to take the intro or the break beat, or the drummer would have it a little set off, and he would just try to take that and replay that over and over again, or use that in his DJ set. I think for me, like sampling, I was driving here today and I heard this techno song, and I was like the intro, I'm like, oh my gosh, Siri, what is that song? I'm going to download that song, and the intro was like 20 seconds, and I want to take that intro and I just want to play with something. I want to do maybe some hip hop, some house, something. So, sampling can be multiple, it can be sounds. Some people, they record sirens from the fire station or whatever, and they'll use that. So I think it just depends on how creative you want to be and what kind of way you want to go. I like to do intros, kind of like long intros, and so I'll take just crazy different sounds and kind of put it into my set. So it just varies, man.
MM
What's the wildest, most out there sample you've incorporated into one of your mixes?
TG
I've incorporated a preacher hooping, yelling, using part of the sermon, and just yelling.
MM
Wait, wait, pause. If for those not familiar with the Black Church tradition, could you please define Hoopin?
TG
Right. So in the black church tradition, some preachers, when they preach, they kind of get excited. And they kind of actually, at the end of their sermon, it's almost like they start rhyming. And it's a lot of crowd participation and kind of call and response.
And so basically, they're like rhyming. And when I say, hey, man, you say... It's like this back and forth, very interactive. And some, not all, get really, really excited and maybe yell. And so I incorporate kind of a yelling into my set, just kind of like, whoa, what's that? What's happening? But that's probably the craziest I've ever seen.
MM
of fun. I love that.
And you know, can you give us a little bit of a behind the scenes into your creative thought process in general as a DJ? Are you thinking, how are people gonna hear this? Or are you thinking like, I'm making this for me? Or somewhere in the middle? What's your process and what's your goal?
TG
It really depends on if I'm doing a DJ set for a non-hip-hop crowd, I'm really trying to showcase what turntableism is. So I'll be super, super intentional about using both of the turntables and showing that I'm actually using the turntables as an instrument.
If I'm at a hip-hop crowd and they know a lot of, they're familiar with hip-hop music, and if I'm in a city, if I'm in New Jersey, I'll try to use artists that are from New Jersey, like Lauryn Hill, like Redman, or whoever I'm at, I'm really cognizant of where I'm at, and if this is a hip-hop crowd, a non-hip-hop crowd, and sometimes I just feed off the energy. If I'm doing a block party in Chicago, if I'm on the south side, I know, okay, house music is where it's at, so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get my cashmere, but I'm just really looking at the crowd, and kind of like, let me test the order, are they feeling Chance the Rapper? Do they want something a little bit more? So I'm just really kind of feeling where everybody's at, and just kind of going, reacting, kind of. It just varies, but it's the energy, so if I get more energy from the crowd, I'll get more creative. That's cool.
MM
So so you're improvising and and adapting in the moment with what you're spinning and what you're choosing and have you ever made a Pretty unexpected pivot during a set
TG
Yeah. If people are not on the dance floor, if I'm at a block party and they really want to dance and they're not really dancing, I got to put on a slide song. I've done the Cha-Cha slide 100,000 times, but I'm like, okay, what can I do to make it different? So let me put some Beyonce with this. So there's times where I'll have 20 songs, okay, I'm going to do these are classic songs. Maybe they're pop songs, maybe they're hip hop songs that people are familiar with. Because I believe people want to join in the party.
People want to sing their favorite songs. They want to dance. So I'll try to have like, okay, what's the top 20 songs that are classic? Maybe it's a Whitney Houston or Michael Jackson or Prince or something. And then, okay, if they're not feeling that, okay, what can I do to kind of remix it that they can say, oh, okay. Maybe a younger crowd doesn't know about Prince, but okay, let me tack in some, you know, the baby or something, you know, someone who's current and just kind of like, okay, yeah. So it's just really kind of like improvising, but also coming prepared too though, coming with like a, you know, coming with some tracks.
MM
Absolutely, you've done some prep work and you're you're kind of ready for anything Yeah, yeah, the thought of young folks not knowing who Prince's makes me sad But also I know that we're getting old and I know that's our reality What so shifting a little bit you are an athlete you've been an athlete your whole life you're putting on music What's the song that's gonna get you in that zone for the long haul or for the big sprint? Whatever it is Yeah
TG
Yeah. If it's a long, long run, I'm listening to some 90s hip-hop. Anything 90s hip-hop like Wu-Tang, Redman, I mean I'm kind of classic old school EPMD.
If it's a long run, if it's a shorter run, when I say short maybe like two miles, three miles, I'm listening. Your short run is my long run. I'm listening to house music, down tempo music, and it can be from any artist. I just need something with a beat that's going to keep me in rhythm. The house music, that's kind of where I'm at. Some techno, I'll use that for the two to three mile runs, but it just keeps me going. I just need a beat to keep going and stay kind of like on rhythm. Completely relate. Yeah.
MM
have to. I need pretty driving.
TG
I can't run without music. I've been running for over 20 years, but I cannot run without music.
MM
Like, can listen to podcasts while working out? Like, I'm so amazed by it.
If you are listening to this right now while you are running, you are my hero. So yeah, that's, I agree, I need that heartbeat. Talk to me a little bit about your identity as an athlete in general. Like, where does that fit in your sense of self?
TG
Yeah. So I think I've been a runner. I've ran at the collegiate level in college, on scholarship, in high school and college. And so I've always loved running.
I think running, for me, whether it's cross country, track and field, it's freedom. Just kind of getting out in the open or just getting on the track. I did 400 and high jump and 800. So I was like a mid-mile guy. But I just love running, the freedom of it, and to compete with the team. And now, I'm not on a team anymore. But at one point, it was pretty unhealthy. That's all I thought about, was being an athlete, making it to the 2000 Olympics. Didn't make it. But that was kind of my whole identity. I was like, just, I'm an athlete. I'm an athlete. And then I realized towards the end of my college career that I was more than just an athlete. Athletics were something I did. It wasn't who I was. And I had a friend who suffered an injury. And I saw their mentality change, where they were like, I realized that they were at the top of their game and then they got injured. And they realized that, you know what? Hey, I had a good career. And I saw them. I'm like, yo, they're looking at, they're not just an athlete. And so, he really helped me to see myself more than just an athlete, that you have so much other skills and talents. You can do this, you can do that. And after college, yeah, I'll do something else. And so, I was like, okay. So that really helped me to kind of look at myself as not just an athlete, but something that I do, but it doesn't define who I am. You know what I mean?
MM
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's really profound, that groundedness of, yeah, this is just part of my life. It's not all of my life. And there's much more to life beyond that, even if it was the majority of how I spent my time and thoughts for a while.
Right, right, right. And you mentioned that sense of freedom. I think that's really, really key. And a consistent theme in a lot of forms of play is a sense of freedom. How does that intersect with competition and performance? Freedom, you know, does freedom get squashed? Is that more just on your own time? Or can that still exist in a competitive environment too?
TG
Yeah, I think now I'm 44, I kind of compete with myself. So it's like I'm competing against what I did last week or yesterday. For me, if I'm not running or DJing throughout the week, I'm like, that snickers commercial. I'm not myself.
I am not myself. My wife, my kids know, like, Dad, you need to go for a run? They know like, have you been doing music, Dad? Why don't you go down to your studio and do some music? I need that. Yeah, they all know. But when I run, my wife, my kids know, okay, Dad's gone, and they know my route, and so I'm just gone. They don't call me, my phone's on, like, don't disturb. And so I just have this freedom, and I'll tell myself, okay, we're going to do two miles today. We're going to do two miles, and we're going to just, we're going to pace yourself. And I'm telling myself, Terrence, you feel good at last mile, like, let it rip. And so that's kind of how I, you know, I'll have these kind of planned out runs, where I'm going to go, and then where I'm going to kind of really rip it.
And I'll kind of reminisce about when I was in college, here's the last lap. Come on, come on. And I just kind of, with the music going, I'll just imagine that people are cheering for me. You know, the people that are driving and looking at me, I can imagine that they're cheering me on. They ain't paying me no attention. They're like, man, there's food running in here, it's all cold outside, you know. But I'll just use that as fuel to like, yeah, they cheering for me. I love that. Yeah, they cheering for me. They cheering for me. Yeah. They probably think, there's any out here running, there's 20 degrees. I mean, maybe it's jealousy.
MM
It's like, oh, I could never do that.
TG
So, but I'll use them looking at me or just the cars as fuel to like, yo, they cheer for me. Oh, okay. And I'll just keep going, man. So that's kind of how I am now, this version of it.
So just kind of competing and playing these mind games with myself just kind of keep me going and not thinking about I'm tired.
You know? That's crazy. I love that.
MM
It sounds like it's much more than just a physical health thing for you, it's a mental health thing as well. It is.
TG
It is. I'm blessed to still be able to run at a high level and still be healthy, but it is mentally, I think spiritually. I think it's all those things. I can just be out in nature. I tell my kids and my family knows 30 minutes a day, outside is good for you mentally, spiritually, just to get the vitamin D, just to be outside changes your mentality.
It's something that I do, whether it's summertime, wintertime, it doesn't matter how cold it is, as long as there's not ice on the ground. I'm outside running. Yeah. That's awesome. I love it. That's inspiring. Are you running? Are you running?
MM
I like to lift more than I like to run. The last two times I have tried running, I have injured myself in some way.
So I think my form is bad. So both involved a treadmill. So maybe it's just a treadmill thing and I need to get outside, to your point. One, I got, I don't know if it's a groin injury or what. I sprained something where my leg meets my hip. And then the other one, a year or two ago, my knees were just killing me. So I'm definitely getting old. That part is clear. But it's probably a form issue. So maybe you can teach me the good form. I got you, man. I got you.
TG
We do pool workouts, all that. Yeah, yeah, hey.
MM
I would love to work out with you, that would be a blast. Okay, so tell me now, your current role, you started here at North Park as athletic chaplain. Part-time, yep.
Part-time, now you have moved, you are full-time the campus pastor here. And athletic chaplain. And athletic chaplain. What is it like to move, I mean, you're not quite a coach, but you're actually, you're almost coaching in a different way, on a deeper, more spiritual level. What is it like to bring your skill and familiarity with sport and running into leadership and guiding and mentoring other people?
TG
Yeah. No, I love it. My minor in college was coaching. And so I use a lot of that. And I was a coach on the West Side at Little Village High School in Chicago for four years. And so I use a lot of those philosophy of coaching, all those classes I used to take, and experience. And I just coach students along. Regardless of their faith, tradition, their background, it doesn't really matter. Just helping them to see that they are important, they're loved, that they're valued, and just kind of be a listening ear. If they need some help or if they need someone to talk to, I'm here.
But also just to encourage them that, yay, you're more than the athlete. I see you not only as an athlete, but you're a student. You're maybe a brother or sister or whatever. But so I get a chance to kind of, not only the students, but also the coaches and the staff, to help them and to coach them and just be a support system for them. Some of our students, they'll come to me and ask me about your relationships and advice. And so I think a lot of that kind of turns a kind of guidance on how I should move as a student athlete and using some of my experience to help them. Hey, this is what I did. Hey, maybe you should think about this. So it's really just doing life with students. And they know who I am as a pastor, as a minister. And so sometimes those questions, they'll just say, yo, so you're a pastor? What you do? And I'll tell them that my job is to get pastoral care and support to every single student, faculty, and staff.
And they'll ask me questions about God, and I'll answer if I can. But I love it. I love it. But I think when you just walk with people and they know that there's no agenda, I'm not trying to convert you, I'm not trying to transform you, I just want to make sure that you can thrive and flourish.
I think when they see that, there's an, okay, I can let my guard down. Okay, wow, this person's really here to help me. And so that's basically what I do. And I think it's just a privilege, because they don't have to come to me. They don't have to. It's not the ones forcing them, but just another form of support, particularly in the pastoral counseling area. But it's wonderful. I love it, man.
MM
That's great. I mean, the fruit of this, this was not staged. We were out walking to grab lunch before this.
There are some football players. It's near the end of the school year right now. And by the time this episode comes out, the school year will be over. But football players on campus were taking some end of the year photos. They see you from across campus and they're like, Pastor T, come over, come over. Like genuinely wanted you in the picture. How often does that kind of thing happen to you? It happens a lot.
TG
But no, it's humbling. My wife and I, we have students over our house. We really, we just love students. I mean, honestly, Mike, also, because there was people who did that to me when I was in college. When I was in college, Troy Anderson and Yvonne and some other people, they welcomed me and they just showed me love and support. And so I feel like I'm just paying it forward, but I spend a lot of time with our students and just loving on them and just getting to know them. So yeah, it's cool what they're like, because I'm like, y'all taking a photo, like, yo, okay, cool. I mean, but yeah, it's really humbling.
So just to kind of get it to build with them and to be part of their lives and then to be part of our lives too. So I think it's just a blessing word out.
MM
I love it. I mean, that says so much about your leadership style and the intentionality you bring here. Like you were saying earlier, there's not a secret sauce here. It's just being present, doing real community together.
So earlier you were mentioning your family a little bit and talking about, you know, let's get outside. Talk to me about how the leadership on campus, your identity as a pastor, how is that similar or different from the way that you parent? As a dad, as a husband, when you come home, what is it like to be present with them in similar ways?
TG
Yeah, so when I come home, I'm high energy and then I have to tail it down a little bit. I'm like, hey, what's going on? Yo, would you do something fun? They're like, turn off pastor mode, dad. Yeah, they're like, yo, dad, today was all right. I'm like, okay. But no, I try to, when I go home, just really be like, hey, how was your day? What's going on? Let's get some snacks. Let's eat and talk.
Because I really want our kids to know that they can talk to their parents and they can vent, whatever. That's something that I didn't have growing up where my parents were able to share with them. So when I'm home, a lot of my wife and I, we both, we try to really, we're partners. And so we try to really create an environment space where if you need some time alone, go ahead, chill. Like you were schooled for all these hours. We tell our kids, go eat, chill, and just do what you got to do and then we'll talk. But we're real intentional about eating dinner together. We don't turn our phones off, our phones are not allowed at the table. My phone is not, computers. So if there's an emergency at the school, somebody else has to handle it because I'm with the family right now at the crib. So we're really intentional about that.
Really intentional about if my kids need to do something like, hey, I need to go to the mall. Come on, let's go. Let's make it happen. And so, but I think we come home, when I come home, I'm the same person that I, at work, just different. I really look at, I'm pastoring or leading my family in the same way I would lead here on campus because it's love, it's sincerity, it's being intentional, spending time. And my kids come here too and they're like, hey, can you come to North Park? Can we come hang out with you? I'm like, yeah, yeah. So it's just balancing that, but also it's just listening to my kids, listening to them and listening to their needs. And so, but it's similar, but it's different.
MM
Yeah, so you don't actually have a pastor mode on off, you are just being and leading because it's very authentic to you and it's just the way that you care for others and that's so evident.
How has the way that you play or bond with your family changed over the years?
TG
My youngest loves to wrestle. She wants like, dad, let's wrestle. And so I think it's really important, especially fathers, if you have daughters, play with your kid. I think there's some time that's been like, don't go easy on them when you wrestle your daughters.
Be gentle with them. My daughter wants to wrestle like, yeah, come on, wrestle, come on. Like, dad, don't go easy on me. I'm like, all right, I'm going a little, but they want to play. They want to go outside, play catch, they want to play basketball, they want to roller skate. Dad, can you go roller skate into the park? Can you go with me and roller skate to the park? So our kids love to play. And I think after doing COVID, we spent a lot of time outside and we actually had a kind of like a play set built in our backyard with a tree house, with a swing, with the monkey bars. And I think we intentionally spent a lot of time outside and I think that hasn't changed in five years since COVID.
We were always outside. It's just kind of like, what are we doing? But I think they want to play more like my daughter played basketball this year. So she's like, dad, guard me. I want you to dribble and I'm going to try to guard you and go hard on me. So it's like, they want to play and I'm like, all right, come on. And then my youngest loves soccer. So we're out there, we're in the backyard playing soccer. She's like, dad, don't go easy. Go hard. Try to get around me real hard. So that's how we play.
That's fun. Which is really cool because I know my parents didn't do that. They didn't play with us. They paid for us to go to the rec center to go play. And we'll pick you up at five. And hope you had a good time. It's like, nah, let's go. We have a membership. Our family has a membership at Lifetime. We're all there working out together, playing. So it's a family thing for real.
MM
That's so cool. I think it's such a great theme that I heard of, yeah, the kids are like, no, I want you to engage me fully. Don't go easy on me because they can feel the difference. Of course, you're going to scale that at some age, but still, they're like, no, I want to be in it with you. Let's do this.
Let's do this for real. That's very cool. That speaks to me. Talk to me a little bit about your sense of play culturally, specifically in the black community and what that looked like for you as a child and what that looks like now. What are some distinctives of play in the black community and for in your experience as a black man in a predominantly white institution or in just the multiculturalness of Chicago? What are your favorite parts of black play? You talk about black boy joy, I'm leading you a little bit.
TG
Yeah, I mean, I love, I think one of the things since I've been in Chicago for like 22 years now is Chicago, as many know, it's a city of neighborhoods. And I think every neighborhood has a difference, just different vibe, flavor. When I grew up in New Jersey, I didn't have a lot of, it wasn't really, it was community, but it wasn't like Chicago community. And what I mean by that is when I lived on the West Side for 14 years, it was always music, it was always community. People were always playing cards, or basketball, and so play was a part of the community. If you're sitting on a stoop, we joking, we playing, we cracking on each other, or just talking about politics, or just laughing about like, man, ain't this crazy, man? And just joking about the current situation, really trying to flip it, and like, you know what, even though this stuff has happened, it's crazy, we still can laugh and have joy. So I think that's what I really loved about where we lived, and particularly in North Lawndale, which at the time was about 90% African American. So it just was very communal, it was always, people were always finding ways to express joy and laugh and play, even when life was crazy.
I loved going to barbeque, backyard barbecues, and you put on an electric slide, or a cha-cha slide, everybody up dancing. Come on, come on, come on y'all, come on, come on, you know, it's like we're dancing and we're playing, having a good time, man, you can't even dance right. And that, to me, is like something that I just, I love about, particularly the black community and our black culture, is that we can be anywhere, and I'm not generalizing black folks, but like, we can find joy in a lot of different spaces and play in a lot We're at the airport, and our flight is being delayed, and we're like, man, can you believe it? We're just talking about something or joking about something, or pulling out some Uno. Who want to play Uno? Let's play some Uno while we wait for this plane to get here, or something like that. So I don't know, I think there's a lot of, and I think there's history with that too. I think my family, on my dad's side, grew up in Charleston, South Carolina, and we can go back to history where enslavement, and my parents would talk about, particularly my dad would talk about how, even on, I don't call them plantations, they're forced labor camps, how there was joy, how people got married, and people still found ways to laugh, even when life was literally like hell. So I've always taken those stories and really taken them, okay, wherever I'm at, wherever I'm located, we can still play, we can still find joy, we still can laugh, and enjoy life, enjoy nature.
But that's one thing I love about the black community here in Chicago, is that anywhere you go, you can find some authentic, laughter, joy, and play happening in some type of way. Barbershop. It's like, whoo! So that's another place too, man.
MM
good I mean and to bring that full circle that that joy piece the resilience of an enslavement and then there's still joy I mean that becomes then the roots in the early seeds of so much of the music of the 19th and 20th century you know the social climate that shaped jazz and how that was I mean jazz was protest music almost it was and then the Delta blues giving way to rock and roll and all of this do you see that coming full circle as joy showing up and shaping music
TG
Oh, yeah. I think jazz is holy honesty. Jazz is like, man, it's sharing about what's happening. And you think about even Marvin Gaye, his song in 1971, I believe came out, What's Going On. That whole album, it's still a beautiful album and it's still relevant to this day.
And when he was with Motown, Motown was known as just the Hitsville USA. And that was one of the first socially conscious songs that was played. And I think it was, hey, we can still laugh and we can still groove, but what's happening to our people who are coming back from the Vietnam War and are struggling mentally and socially trying to find jobs and are not treated like they're human. Let's talk about those things. Let's talk about that. And so I think that has been, you see that in waves in different genres, particularly hip hop and other spaces where like, okay, we're gonna talk about how we should fight the power. We should talk about there's broken glass everywhere, people pissing everywhere. The message, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5 back in 1982. But I think there's a lot of, you see that. You see Jay Z to Nas, Illmatic, the album that came out in 1994. That's really what's happening in our neighborhood and what's the joy, but let's share the truth about what's happening in our neighborhood and in our world. So I think you see that in music, jazz and hip hop and other genres of like, wow, they're talking about something that's happening. And I may not be able to relate to that. I may not experience that, but I actually, wow, thank you for helping me to enter into your world and what's happening because I have no clue. I don't have no clue. Now, I mean, obviously social media, but I think it was so important back then and powerful to like, wow, this is what's happening. But yeah, I think that's, I wish we had more of that in a lot of our music today.
MM
So you can bring some of that in in the mixes that you create and definitely like I'm like you said blending preaching with music Yeah, there's lots of ways to To share a message that's gonna land and be delivered in ways that other people might not have been seeking out like oh, I'm not interested in Whatever, but this song is amazing and oh the more time I spend with it. There's something deeper happening, right?
TG
Right. And I always say, for me, in my faith tradition, if Jay-Z was a preacher, he would be a narrative preacher.
He's telling a story. He's talking. If Nas too, if he was a preacher, he would be a narrative preacher, telling a story. And I think one of the things that we all have, regardless of your background, your gender, your race, your faith traditions, we all have a story. And so when I hear your story, you hear my story, we're able to enter in and say, oh, wow, I never thought about that. I didn't know you experienced that. Wow. That's deep. And so we're able to relate and to have empathy and sympathy, and we're like, oh, oh, man. And not just like, oh, just kind of stereotype, all that, no, no, this is their personal story. But yeah, I love doing those things where particularly bringing stories in where people may not be like, oh, I never thought I would listen to this and this, and bringing these together and like, oh, this is pretty hot, this is hot, this is dope. And just playing with those different styles and stuff. Absolutely.
MM
Storytelling is such a powerful medium because how can, when someone shares their personal story with you, how could I look you in the face and be like, that didn't really happen to you? Right, right, right. No, that's not real. Nah, that's not real. It's crazy.
You know, and yeah, so like I think of Good Kid, Mad City, Kendrick Lamar, concept album, it tells a story in a way that simply trying to lay it out as dry bullet points is not going to convey. Right. But when you are immersed in the story and you understand like this is personal, this is, there are aspects of this that are really real and you know, in an art form, you're going to, you know, maybe present it in a different way. But still, so much of my journey as I have grown and expanded my faith, my political views as they have changed has been because of storytelling. And hearing the personal stories of people who have a very different experience and culture than me, recognizing that I have just my one perspective and there's so much more I don't know, storytelling has been, I'm just kind of realizing in this moment, like, wow, that is one of the most consistent themes in my spiritual, emotional, cultural growth.
TG
Yeah. Story talent.
Wow. And you gotta be close to people to hear their stories. So like you gotta be, you know, you have to make, it has to be some intentionality to hear someone's story or be close to someone to hear their stories. So, but yeah, we all have one and I think when we hear each other's stories, we're able to relate in many ways that maybe we thought we wouldn't be able to relate, but we can, you know.
MM
just speaks again to like your pastoral presence. The way that you are building real relationships creates the opportunities for you to hear the stories that really reveal who someone is and what's important to them and what's happening all around us.
All right, so to bring all this together now, talking about play in a couple different ways. In the Dr. Terrence Gadsden textbook, what's the definition of play? What does play mean to you, Terrence?
TG
Man, that's such a big question. I think play is taking all the gifts and talents and the things that you desire and letting them play out, trying them. I think if you're a writer, play with some stories in your head that write them out and see where it goes if you're a musician. Play some music that makes you feel good.
Playing is being intentional. It's being creative. It's not being stripped, having a certain script and it has to be this, it can be multiple different things. But I think play, you have to be intentional and you have to use your creative muscle to play and even if you're inside, and I think my daughter, she loves to draw and she loves to create stories and she's playing with these stories. So I think play is using your gifts, using your talents in different ways to bring happiness, to bring joy to you and maybe other people, but being intentional about doing it.
MM
That's cool. So taking, I want to make sure I heard this right, taking what you have and seeing what can unfold with it, letting it play out to maybe make something beautiful and get outside.
Did I get that right? And be intentional about it.
TG
And trying it, and not being afraid to fail, and not being afraid to like, oh, this doesn't look right. No, you're just trying it.
So I think that's hip-hop. Hip-hop was, we're going to try these records, and it just formed, but it was authentic. It was intentional, and it created this culture now, it's worldwide. It's multigenerational, it's multilingual, it's multicultural, but it started off with a love, and intentionality, and so.
MM
I had not thought about the idea of intentionality coming up in playfulness, but you do and increasingly as we get older you have to Set aside some time or have a sense of like I'm here to play I mean, you know, and so of course then there's improvisation and free-flowing that comes out of that But there does have to be a sense of yeah, we're playing now Yeah, maybe the more you do it the more it starts to just happen naturally, but yeah, that's really cool Think about intentionality there. Yeah got to be Terrence, thank you so much for sharing it.
I always feel like I learned so much from you every time we chat I'm grateful for you So grateful for your leadership with here as well and to everyone who gets to be led by you and meet you It's it's truly a joy and an honor
TG
Thank you. Shout out to you too, man. Thanks for doing some great things. I love you, man.
MM
Love you too!
